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UPDATE: Ativan For Sale, I should make it clear before you read the content below that since writing this post, my position on the 'mosque' has changed. Dennis N. pointed out in the comments that it's not actually a mosque and it's two blocks away from Ground Zero. I've read up a good deal more and see that I was misinformed, Ativan description. So I now have no problem with the project itself. However, the original point of my post, as expressed in the title, is unchanged: not everyone opposed to the project is motivated by bigotry, Ativan For Sale. The accusations of bigotry against the Anti-Defamation League after they announced their opposition is what prompted me to write this. Ativan dose, I'm leaving the original post unaltered, but want to be clear that I'm no longer opposed to the project, but that my position on the issue was never the main point of the post.
It's a rare thing indeed to find me aligned on a particular issue with the likes of Newt Gingrich or Sarah Palin, but regarding the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero, buy cheap Ativan no rx, I'm with them in opposition. Just not necessarily for the same reasons. Ativan duration, Unfortunately, many in the liberal blogosphere are equating all opposition to the mosque with bigotry and religious intolerance.
Let's start with Gingrich Ativan For Sale, .
"The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over," Gingrich wrote, buy generic Ativan. "The proposed 'Cordoba House' overlooking the World Trade Center site – where a group of jihadists killed over 3,000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks – is a test of the timidity, Buy Ativan online no prescription, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites."
He sees accepting the mosque as a sign of Islamic demands and American timidity and passivity, another attempt to subvert us into submission. And there he goes again throwing 'elite' into the picture. No, Ativan no prescription, outside of Newt Gingrich's head, American elites kowtowing to Muslim bullies isn't what this is about. I can forgive anyone calling this a bigoted view, as that's what this poor attempt at rationalization seems to be, Ativan For Sale. Ativan street price, Then there's Sarah Palin, as taken from her third attempt to coherently tweet her opinion on the issue.
Peace-seeking Muslims pls understand. Ground Zero mosque is UNNECESSARY provocation; it stabs hearts, purchase Ativan for sale. Pls reject it in interest of healing
Long time readers of this blog will be aware of my opinion on Sarah Palin. Ativan For Sale, And as much as I want to jump on the bandwagon and call her an intolerant bigot here, I just can't. Doesn't stop Geoffrey Dunn over at HuffPo, Ativan blogs, though. His post on Palin's tweet expresses his distaste right in the title: Palin's Bigoted Twitter Calls on Muslims to "Refudiate" (links from the original article left in tact in the following quote).
Echoing the bigoted and right-wing contortions of the National Republican Trust PAC and disgraced Tea Party leader Mark Williams, Sarah Palin has sent the world of Twitter on fire this afternoon, Ativan pictures, with a series of incendiary Tweets about the proposed Islamic cultural center and mosque two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center
So Palin's tweet above is both bigoted and incendiary. Really. Where, Ativan For Sale. Buy Ativan without a prescription, How.
Palin, and I can't believe I'm about to type this, actually has a point here, buy Ativan from canada. And this is the real heart of the issue. Unfortunately, Taking Ativan, people like Dunn are just blanketing all opposition to the mosque as bigoted and intolerant, without stopping to consider the motivation behind it. Ativan For Sale, Sure, call out Gingrich on his thinly-disguised hate, but don't take a rational argument and discredit it just because it paradoxically came from the mouth of Sarah Palin. I've seen numerous opponents of the mosque make the point that they'd have no complaint with it being constructed anywhere else. Their only beef is that it is being planned at Ground Zero, buy no prescription Ativan online. Before painting people who believe that, myself included, Australia, uk, us, usa, with the bigot brush, take a hard look at what it is we are actually saying.
Even the Anti-Defamation League, another group I often disagree with, order Ativan from United States pharmacy, is making sense in their recent announcement of opposition. They say,
Proponents of the Islamic Center may have every right to build at this site, and may even have chosen the site to send a positive message about Islam, Ativan For Sale. The bigotry some have expressed in attacking them is unfair, Generic Ativan, and wrong. But ultimately this is not a question of rights, but a question of what is right. In our judgment, effects of Ativan, building an Islamic Center in the shadow of the World Trade Center will cause some victims more pain—unnecessarily—and that is not right.
This is a much clearer enunciation of the same position espoused by Palin. Yet, Ativan overnight, it prompted Mark Tracy to say at the Tablet (emphasis mine),
Founded in 1913, the ADL, in its words, order Ativan online overnight delivery no prescription, “fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.” Except when it does the precise opposite.
Over at the Atlantic, Cheap Ativan no rx, Jeffery Goldberg calls it A Terrible Decision, and David Weiner at the HuffPo sarcastically declares, "So much for religious tolerance."
Tracy, Goldberg, where can i cheapest Ativan online, Weiner, and others taking up the cry of bigotry and intolerance are way off base. Ativan For Sale, To illustrate the heart of the issue, take a look at the memorial to Task Force Smith, located between the towns Suwon and Songtan in South Korea. Ativan images, In the early days of the Korean War, Lt. Colonel Charles Smith was given the unenviable assignment of slowing the rapid North Korean advance in order to buy time for American forces to deploy to the southern part of South Korea. With a force of 400 infantry soldiers backed by an artillery battery, Ativan no rx, he departed Japan and confronted the North Koreans, with their T-34 tanks, Discount Ativan, at a point south of Suwon. The Americans were plagued by problems: the soldiers were mostly young and inexperienced; they lacked effective anti-tank weaponry; many of the artillery rounds were too old and failed to explode; and their communication lines were disrupted due to the weather. In the end, some twenty Americans died, 130 were wounded or missing, and nearly 40 were taken captive, Ativan For Sale. Still, the mission was a success in that it delayed the North Korean advance, Ativan australia, uk, us, usa.
I could have picked numerous wars or battles, some great some small, Ativan recreational, to make my point, but I was looking for an excuse to talk about Task Force Smith. And my point is that the memorial that stands there today is in honor of Charles Smith and the men who fought and died in that spot on July 5, 1950, is Ativan safe. Similarly, there is a statue of MacArthur in Incheon to commemorate the Incheon landing, Ativan use, the event that reversed North Korea's early gains and saved the South from complete occupation. Ativan For Sale, There are many other memorials to the UN forces scattered about the country. What do they all have in common. None of them were erected in honor of North Korea.
When a major event happens that causes people to die, Ativan used for, we humans like to erect monuments ostensibly to honor the dead. Realistically, No prescription Ativan online, it's to soothe the survivors. Future generations can look back and think how great those people were for what they did, or how terrible it was that they had to die, Ativan For Sale. But those who actually build the monuments in the first place are usually looking for comfort, or at least to comfort others. How many veterans or relatives of dead veterans wept at the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, ordering Ativan online, D.C.. How many have made the pilgrimage to the Oklahoma City National Memorial to mourn an event still recent in our memories. Cheap Ativan, The point that Sarah Palin and others are making is that anything built at Ground Zero will be construed as a memorial to September 11, 2001. Ativan For Sale, To actually build a mosque, an inherent symbol of the religion used as justification by the men who murdered so many, at that particular location is an insult not just to the memory of the dead, but especially to those who still mourn the event and feel the loss. To them, it is a memorial to the killers and not the innocent victims, online buy Ativan without a prescription. How would people have reacted if the government had decided to fund a militia training center at the site of the Oklahoma City Bombing. What if the Vietnam Memorial were built to honor the Viet Cong. Would those opposed to such outlandish memorials be considered bigoted and intolerant.
This has nothing to do with intolerance of Islam or hatred of Muslims, Ativan For Sale. You want to build a bridge between religions and promote tolerance. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about it. This is absolutely not the right way. In the end, the intent behind the project is irrelevant. Ativan For Sale, What matters is how it is perceived by the public. Build the mosque a few blocks away from Ground Zero. Go ahead. But until the horror of 9/11 fades from our collective memory, until we no longer feel the pain, the shock and the loss that came with it, then any construction at Ground Zero that does not explicitly honor the dead and the grieving will, rightfully, be met with resistance. So I ask you, who is being intolerant.
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This is rather upsetting to read about from a blog I’ve followed for a while now. You have gotten so many things wrong in this post.
First off, it is not a mosque. It is a cultural center. Ever been to a YMCA? Kind of like that. You don’t find swimming pools and tennis courts in a ‘mosque’.
Second, as you noted later in the post, this is not AT Ground Zero. This is two New York City blocks away. I’m not sure if you’ve been to NYC, but as someone who lives in the Northeast, I can tell you that two blocks in the City can be like driving a few miles elsewhere. It can be worlds apart.
Third, do you think no Muslims died in the WTC attacks?
Fourth, this is not the same group that attacked the WTC. They are in no way related aside from both being a part of the second largest religious group on the planet. Hard to draw a connection there. They are not related to Al-Qaeda in the same way that militias were related to Tim McVeigh. It is plain to see that building an Islamic center 2 blocks away is not intended to be a statement about anything. Their other center has so many members that it can’t hold them anymore, so they’re expanding, and this lot happened to be available.
This is akin to not letting (another) church be built near where Dr. Tiller was shot. It’s utterly ridiculous. That (hypothetical) church had nothing to do with Scott Roeder, even if the world sees them as all part of the same ‘Christianity’. Most Americans see the 9/11 Islam and this cultural center’s Islam as the same, but you should be better than that.
Fifth, IS about intolerance of Muslims. If this situation were reversed, let’s say it was in Iraq. After we come in and wreck their country as “Christian” invaders, and some Iraqi Christians wanted to build a church there, would Iraqi citizens be right in opposing it? Do you think Sarah Palin would be for or against it? I can guarantee right now that she would support it, and not see the hypocrisy.
I’m an atheist with no love for Islam or Christianity. I see what religious ideas can do to a person’s mind, and understand that what those 19 hijackers believed about the afterlife caused them to fly planes into the towers. But there is a difference between hating ideas, and constricting the rights of people. In my perfect world, there would be no churches or mosques, not because they were banned; but because no one felt the desire for them.
OK, everything I’ve read about it has said ‘mosque’. I have seen references to ‘cultural center’, which caused me to understand that it was a mosque with a special area open to the public to teach about the peaceful aspects of Islam and promote religious tolerance. You have to admit, there’s a lot of misinformation out there.
Again, everything I’ve read about it has said AT Ground Zero. If it’s two blocks away, that does make it a different issue and certainly leads me to reconsider my position. But it doesn’t change the fact that many people are working from the same misinformation, nor does it change my point that they shouldn’t be called bigoted or intolerant.
Of course I don’t believe that. But Muslims were not the target of the attackers. This was not a Shia vs. Sunni affair, but an attack by Islamic fundamentalists on the West.
I understand that. Believe me, I do. But the fact remains that it was Islamic fundamentalists who carried out the attack. There are many degrees of belief in any religion. Some followers are peaceful, some are violent. But regardless of how they interpret their dogma, it comes from the same source and has a single name. We can distinguish between the brand of Christianity followed by Fred Phelps and his ilk and that followed by Southern Baptists, Lutherans, and so on. But they all exist under the blanket label of ‘Christianity’.
So when someone understands that an Islamic mosque (yes, I know now it isn’t a mosque, but people believe it to be) is being built where Muslims killed a few thousand of their fellow citizens, do you really expect them to make a distinction between the varying degrees of belief?
I think it’s a different thing entirely. First, 9/11 had a much greater emotional impact on a larger number of people. Ground Zero has a special meaning to hundreds or thousands, if not millions, of Americans. It is a symbolic location. The site of Tiller’s murder only has that sort of meaning to those who were close to him. It’s a matter of scale and personal connection.
Again, a different issue. In general, I’m not opposed (nor are many others, as I mentioned) to building mosques, Islamic cultural centers, or other structures related to Islam or any other religion. Any antipathy displayed toward Christianity in general by Iraqis would be highly understandable if they perceived the war to be a Christianity vs. Islam thing. Would it be right? If they are motivated by hatred, of course not, no more than it’s right for people to oppose this project out of bigotry now.
Yes, there are people who are opposed to this idea because they hate everything to do with Islam. And they are absolutely wrong. Also, I concede that I was wrong about the details. I should probably write a post about it. But, as I said above, that doesn’t change my point in this post. Many people are opposed to this not out of bigotry or intolerance, but because they were emotionally wounded on 9/11. For them, this is not the time to be building a symbol of Islam at the location where Islamic terrorists caused so much death and destruction. It’s not about Islam itself, but about the site and how it is associated with the memory of the event and those who died.
Furthermore, I absolutely do not see this as a rights issue. The backers of this project have every right to build this thing where legally possible. But, everyone else has just as much right to oppose or support it. Public opinion has at times caused construction projects to be abandoned. And, in this case, Ground Zero no longer belongs just to New Yorkers, but to all Americans. You can’t ignore the right of the public to voice their opinion. But regardless of the amount of misinformation out there, it would be nice to avoid branding everyone who opposed the project as intolerant bigots. That, as the title suggests, was the point of my post.
I still think you’re not understanding this. The people behind Park51 are not in any way related to terrorists or their past actions. They are not deserving of a public backlash, simply because they have beliefs that fit under the extremely general umbrella of “Islam”. At some points you seem to understand that, and at others you seem to forget it, which is hard because it is at the base of your argument.
I think it comes down to this:
“So when someone understands that an Islamic mosque (yes, I know now it isn’t a mosque, but people believe it to be) is being built where Muslims killed a few thousand of their fellow citizens, do you really expect them to make a distinction between the varying degrees of belief?”
Yes, yes I really do. I think if they can’t understand basic facts, that invalidates their opinion, and makes them wrong. Maybe I just hold people to a higher standard than you, I don’t know. I prefer to not give into our base emotions and instead apply reason to the situation, and I fault others for not living up to that, the same as I fault myself.
I didn’t get a clear answer on the Iraq parallel. Say Iraqi’s had a public outcry about a Christian center being built in their country, and it’s not out of bigotry. It’s out of the emotional impact of the 100,000 civilians who have died since the Christian God told George Bush to invade their home. Would you support them then? That’s worse by a factor of 30, and I would still support the building of a Christian center there, if it had the same stated goals as Park51.
Now, I don’t think you’re a bigot, and I don’t plan to stop following your blog. But Gingrich and Palin (and teapartiers by and large) are bigots, and this fits in with their past spoken views. Maybe Palin’s exact words were not bigoted, taken alone in a vacuum, but she has a track record. Palin is doing this either out of bigotry or out of a cheap political trick to stir up bigotry; I don’t know which is worse. They are the ones leading this faux outrage, not you or someone with similar views. So it’s not inaccurate to say this event is being driven on the whole by bigotry.
As an addendum, this isn’t entirely about the location, this is about any mosques, or anything Islamic, at this point, mostly becoming an issue because 20% of this country has lost their flipping minds. See here: http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/07/we_have_to_admit_that.html
I do understand your point, but I think you aren’t getting mine. For me, and I’m sure for others (no idea about Palin) it really isn’t a religious issue. I’ll give you an analogy.
As an atheist, I enjoy pointing out what I see as the silliness of religion and the religious, both on this blog and in conversations. But, I’m not about to walk into a Christian funeral service and call everyone a bunch of morons. I have the right to do, but it would be horribly insensitive. Do you agree?
I essentially see this issue the same way. An Islamic structure built at the site where Muslims killed so many people will be a constant reminder that Muslims killed so many people there. The intent and belief of the builders don’t matter one bit. I would also question the compassion of anyone who decided to open a gun shop near Columbine. This really is, for me, a matter of location and consideration of the pain of others.
I’m afraid I have no clear answer for your Iraqi analogy, as I don’t see it in the same light. I mean, I could understand if they were opposed to the building of a church near the site of a particular atrocity. But once you start talking about banning church construction in the whole country, that’s a different thing entirely.
But again, this is not at the site. This is two city blocks away. If it was at the site, you may have a point, but it’s not. The actual site should be off-limits to anything besides a memorial. It’s a testament to how much the right-wing shapes the national conversation with their distortions that you actually think it is at the site.
There is actually a church being built at Ground Zero. I am opposed to this, because 9/11 was a direct result of the danger of religion. We shouldn’t be building a church on the site. Build it two blocks away. Why is one ok and not the other?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/nyregion/03trade.html?_r=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bagli,%20Charles%20V
Dude, I know it’s not at the site. You explained that in your first comment. And I said in my first reply, “that does make it a different issue and certainly leads me to reconsider my position.” So, I’m with you. By all means, build the cultural center.
But this post was never about my position. There was one primary point: not everyone opposed to the project is motivated by bigotry. That’s it. I mentioned that I was opposed and illustrated my motivation as evidence. In my replies to you, I was trying to reiterate that point.
So to make it crystal clear, I have no problem with this building as long as it isn’t constructed at Ground Zero. But, there are still people out there who believe, as I did, that it is actually being constructed AT Ground Zero. But that doesn’t make them bigots by default, just misinformed. Bigotry may very well be the motivating factor for many people, but not all.
Because it wasn’t Christian extremists who perpetrated the attacks. You have to consider the psychology behind all of this. An Islamic building causes a mental connection to be made with the attackers because they were Muslims. That’s a negative connection because the attack itself was the horror. Because a majority of Americans are Christian, a Christian building is going to evoke a different sort of connection, which for many Americans will be a positive connection. That’s why one is OK and not the other.
Personally, I’m with you. I don’t think a church should be built there any more than an Islamic building. If they aren’t going to build a memorial, I think they should build a secular center that teaches the dangers of religious fundamentalism of all stripes. But that would never fly for the same reason a mosque wouldn’t. For me, it would be a positive connection to the event. But too many Americans, being the good little Christians they are, see secularism or atheism as an attack on Christianity, which would evoke a negative connection. They would equate it with supporting the attackers, no matter the intent behind it.
I think we’ve converge on agreement.
Good to know